It was October 2016, when I met Kostas Politis in his favorite cafe in Glyfada. We sat together for two hours and that's it. What we did not say then, we added in another meeting at his Office, on Damareos Street, in Pagrati. I was then preparing the book "87 Nothing stopped us" and his own testimonies about the miracle of Eurobasket were, of course, valuable.
These discussions - about the needs of the historical sports narrative - were captured in an interview, if not the last, certainly one of the last of his life about the great team he created in 1987. In July 2017, he gave me the honor to speak at the presentation of the book by the Municipality of Byron, at the "Anna Synodinou" theater, high up in the Rocks. Almost a year later, Eurocoach passed away at the age of 76, having faced serious health problems.
It is true that his role in the reconstruction, creation and ideal operation (a word he was very fond of using) of a unique National Team it was not performed to its full potential, at least in the first years after the triumph - when he himself continued to work, returning to coaching at the collective level, where the reasonable wear and tear of any competitive clashes, lost the glittering wrapping of its original glory.
In the course of time, however, his great contribution and the strategy he drew up in 1982 when Giorgos Vasilakopoulos entrusted him with the position of federal coach were recognized.
A bold, as well as innovative, policy was implemented with surgical precision, so that Greek basketball could take advantage of all the circumstances and reach the evening ofJune 14, 1987 at the top of Europe. Yes, it was an epic, a miracle, which 35 years later is still something of a milestone in the modern era of Greek sports, but there was a five-year preparatory process, with moves that literally changed the map.
The Citizen, central character of these innovations that were implemented at that time. If you now ask the protagonists of '87 and beyond, you will hear them admit the essential role of a coach who saw ahead of his time, knew how to make cuts, did not care about criticism, was present almost everywhere, having a complete picture and knowledge of basketball material. When he was called upon to build the '87 team, he knew exactly how to put the pieces of the puzzle together, one by one.
And that conversation with him, six years ago, (and not only about the Eurobasket feat, but with references to many topics from Nikos Galis to Giannis Antetokounmpo) looks like his legacy for the future. Today, on the day of the 87th anniversary, we convey it word for word. He is also an old man in the memory of the great coach-visionary, with great thoughts about basketball, way ahead of his time.
The capture of "another National"
In 1987, you completed five years in the National Team. What was the central idea for building the team that would compete in Eurobasket in Athens?
After our failure to qualify for Euro 1985, when we did not do well, there was a reflection. Who we are, what we had to do, who we had to copy, putting in our own elements.
And so the "arrest" of another group took place. Renewed and certainly taller, according to the standards of the time, which the Yugoslavs, or the Soviets, had set. We saw the tall bodies of the opponents and were scared. You tell me, we didn't have five 2.10 players, obviously we couldn't have those heights. But we adapted to our own data. I set out to build a team with a specific philosophy.
In the "3" position that Giannakis played until 1983, in the formation with the three short ones and next to Galis who was the shooting guard and Koroneios the playmaker, I put Andritsos, then Romanidis, until Fanis came. I wanted to raise the figures, there was no other way, that's where basketball was headed now, we couldn't stay behind. We had failures and we had to change things. Of course, a design is not enough to exist only on paper. You have to mobilize all the mechanisms for its implementation. We went to a lot of tournaments, testing new players who were gaining experience and of course our qualification for the 1986 World Cup helped us a lot. The stop match to go to Spain was the match in Eckentreville against France. Seeing the young people respond, we saw that in view of 1987, the conditions were there for something better than the past.
Alongside the big guns, Galis and Giannakis, a new generation of players hungry for success has been added. Headed by Fanis with his inexhaustible talent. Fasoulas also came back from America and so we settled on a plan. Most important of all, we built a team with roles. We knew what had to be done, at any moment, the changes were defined, let's say Fanis came out and Andritsos came in. . After all, from the moment when it was clear that Galis was the scorer and Giannakis the organizer, we added the pieces one by one...
The famous renewal was not easy. I remember in many cases there was even intense discomfort
There was criticism, especially when I got new kids. Some tournaments in Thessaloniki or options for the Balkan championship. Even the dozen I picked for the World Cup was challenged. Only tomatoes were not thrown at me. In my career, however, I have learned something. You have to take risks. Maintenance leads nowhere. Risk, on the contrary, gives solutions and perspectives, as long as you believe it. I had the philosophy that we had to fight with new kids...
There was also a championship know-how, with the titles you had won from Panathinaikos...
I had won three championships. In my mind, however, was the image of the top national teams of the time. Koroneos was my child. I had him since I was a kid at Panathinaikos, but we couldn't stick to the formation, with the three short ones. That was good to win the qualifiers in Turkey and celebrate. But then the problems started. The first choice was for Giannakis to go to the ace. Galis would always be the shooting guard (s.s In 1987, Politis made an offer to Takis Koronaios to return to the National Team as Giannakis' back-up, but the international ace who at the time had had an excellent year with Panionios refused the role of a "substitute" resulting in Memos Ioannou being called in. Koroneios later acknowledged this no as the biggest mistake of his career after missing the opportunity to win his gold medal Eurobasket )
The adaptation of Giannakis
How easy was the Galis-Giannakis pairing?
It was not. Giannakis had the talent to attack. In Ionikos, he scored 60 points, but he also had the body to play defense. Galis was different. He was more fond of attacking, where he had tremendous charisma.
So, we had to reform Giannakis. Panagiotis made a great effort and adapted to the role, which really suited him, forgetting the way he played in Nice, when he crossed the center of the field and ... shot. Now, he was playing good defense, providing assists, and scoring when he needed to. I think his transfer to Aris also helped a lot. Bond the duo. It was a great deal, because if Giannakis went to, say, Panathinaikos and Galis stayed in Aris, we wouldn't have this cooperation on a daily basis. It started as an experiment in the National Team, it continued in Aris...
You were watching that the national team would become a team equal to the leaders of the time?
For sure, I didn't think we would reach the level of foreigners. But I was optimistic, because they were following players, from behind. The connecting link was Fanis Christodoulou. We went to the Balkan and played with teams that had qualified for EuroBasket and we played against them, with Fanis as a top player. We saw hope alive. The players saw it, we saw it too. The puzzle was now completed with the pieces being inserted one by one
Giannakis moved up to the "ace", Fasoulas returned with the experience of America, Fanis established himself in the "3", Galis had found the role of the top scorer, plus the new guys, we had a good yeast in our hands.
We got a first taste of the team's abilities from the preparation tournaments. We were challenging teams that we had never beaten. Like Italy, which we beat away from home. We played a lot of games and even did something innovative. As soon as "Acropolis" ended, that very night, we left for Germany to play three more matches...
There was, if I'm not mistaken, an ideal team of collaborators at your side
Partners play a big role, the staff was excellent. The team also operated off the field. It was a good company, very important event. These were the elements, which brought us the triumph, These and the world. The support from the fans was incredible. All this support, whether on the field or on the bus ride to the SEF, made the players feel like superman. They would enter the field and fly. They asked Galis if the victory was big and he said yes, until the next one. Confidence was soaring. Psychology counts a lot in our sport.
Let's not forget that we had fallen into a very difficult group. We had the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Spain and France. We were in danger of being out of the top four and failing miserably, going for positions 9-12. On the other hand, if we qualified, the road to the knockout games was open. From the other group, the most difficult opponent was Italy. Of course, it was a fear for us, because we had never beaten it. But in that match, we played amazing. I remember Kambouris nailing with fury and the stadium going crazy...
- And all this after a serious injury in the premiere of the tournament
We had a big loss with Filippo's injury, because Nikos was a key player. Five hundred. We didn't have many options. They were measured. We couldn't suddenly change what we had planned with the roles. Giannakis was replaced by Ioannou, Fanis was replaced by Andritsos. So also Kambouris, would enter instead of Philippou. Of course, no one expected him to play so well. He bonded with the whole team. He was the one pushing, something Fasoulas who was excellent at defending above the rim couldn't do. Argyris put his body with strength, the team helped him, it was a revelation for me...
Many times the battles of the tall ones seemed like an unequal battle, but in the end we always won them
Fasoulas was a pillar in defense. At halftime of each game, we would go to the sideline and discuss what we should do in the second half. With Yugoslavia in the semi-final, Panagiotis lay down on the stands and says to me "Coach, I can't go up, I can't take it anymore". I say to him "come on Panagiotis, there's only half an hour left..."
Here, speaking of, he was alone against all the beasts. You could see the Yugoslavs changing the tall ones, no problem. Russia had giants. And he was alone. Well done again, that he lasted until the end and made such a great tournament.
Were there any tricks, before or after the tournament?
At Acropolis we lost to Yugoslavia by 20 points. So, the journalist Yannis Antonopoulos comes to the hotel and asks me, coach, how do you see things, etc., etc.
I tell him, don't look at the result. Yugoslavia is a big team, but we didn't play as well as we can. I hid some things, from what we will actually do in Eurobasket.
What did I mean? What we did in the official matches. We were giving assists on the markings, resulting in the Yugoslavs taking the ball out to shoot free three-pointers. We decided not to change the three regional players, the help should come from inside and so we blocked them in both matches.
Fanis did it all
But you also gave the ball to Galis from the beginning of the attack
Going to Germany I was thinking that we would make even more use of Galis and his tremendous talent to put the ball in the basket, in any way. Most defenses wanted to limit him to either side of the puck so they wouldn't give him much room to maneuver. I thought of putting him up top and that's how we made the "1" system, with Giannakis passing the ball to Galis, who now had the whole field in front of him, whether to act one-on-one ... or all, he had no problem , or to pass to Fasoula when the tall opponents came out for help. The class of Gali-Giannakis, the enormous qualifications of Fasoula, were given. But the key to everything was Fanis..."
How exactly?
He had a multidimensional role. He played defense against the opponents' best striker, could bring the ball down if needed and of course had a good long shot. In the semi-final against Yugoslavia, he started with 3/3 three-pointers. I believe he was the most gifted athlete of all who have come through Greek basketball, based on what he could do on the court. He was filling up his stats, with points, rebounds, assists and made people like Stankovic admire him endlessly. Surely he would be even better if he played in high league teams, because he would be forced to work harder. He had enormous qualifications. We were going to Pesaro, for a tournament, and I made him a playmaker. He was amazing. In another game, we faced Korea. They were all short. Seeing the progress of the match, I make the decision and say "Fanis five". We broke them up. This was Christodoulou. A basketball player, in every sense of the word...
With what feeling did you enter SEF about the development of the tournament?
The image we had from the friendlies was promising. We played against big teams, universities like Providence coached by Rick Pitino. I thought we would do well going into the top eight. Nothing more even crossed our minds, but as the games progressed we grew as a team, along with our goals.
Which match were you most nervous about?
With France. With a defeat, we fell short of our goals. There was a lot of stress, especially in the first half where we didn't run away with the score. For the first time in my career, in fact, I had taken two aspirins, before the match, so that I could coach calmly. It was a key match for the continuation. And for our psychology and for what followed. If we lost to France, nobody remembered that we had beaten Yugoslavia or that we had played against the Soviet Union. We would play for places 9-12 and everything would be quickly forgotten.
The big game, of course, was the final. Terrible dozen. They were in and out and it was the same. We had no such weapons, except for the people who pushed us almost metaphysically in every phase of the fight.
Yiannis Latsis, who was excited by the performance of the national team, asked me for the video tape of the final. I made a copy and gave it to him, asking what he wanted. He answered me:"I want to send it to the king of Saudi Arabia, because he cannot understand that ten million defeated two hundred. I told him, of course, that it was not a war, but a basketball game".
Gomelski was an excellent opponent, very energetic in coaching, trying different formations to surprise you...
Unlikely to see Giannis
What did Eurobasket give us in the end?
The bases are in. It was evident from the successes that followed. We got a lot of stuff. In every level. It wasn't a firework. Factors appeared, they invested, budgets were raised. Also came titles, which were missing. We entered another era, where we touched and surpassed strangers. Not only the generation of 87 but also the next ones that followed. The seed was planted, the fruit blossomed. Even now, when we have difficulties.
There was a sequel. It seems like we've been losing it for the past few years, but Antetokounmpo came along to rekindle the flame. It is fortunate that this child is in America, where the work on him is done in a scientific way. It is unlikely that you will see him when he takes the rebound and with two or three dashes he has crossed the field, ready to nail. We have to build a team around his talent, his skills..."
And here in Greece? Homegrown talent?
The coach must look ahead and imagine the real position of the talented player. Yes, look at Charalambopoulos. He should start as a guard, so that he has the creation in mind and doesn't wait in the corner for a pass to shoot. I remember him small, light body, he could excel. Now, it has put on quite a bit of weight.
Rogavopoulos, in my opinion, who plays for Doukas (s.s. in 2016) is an exceptional case. Ταλέντα βγαίνουν, αλλά δεν τους αξιοποιούμε όπως θα’ πρεπε
Από παλιά, είχα την απορία γιατί οι Γιουγκοσλάβοι έβαζαν τον Κούκοτς με ύψος 2.07 να παίζει στα πλάγια και εμείς, ούτε καν το σκεφτόμασταν. Ίσως επειδή στις μικρές εθνικές ομάδες, επικρατούσε η λογική της νίκης, ενώ κανείς δεν έπαιρνε ρίσκο. Τους αρκούσε μια αξιοπρεπής ήττα. Μη χάσουμε με πολλά και «εκτεθούμε». Αν δεν σπάσεις αυγά, όμως, δεν έχει και ομελέτα. Πήρα στην Εθνική τον Καρατζά από το Παγκράτι, τον Ελληνιάδη από τον Πειραϊκό, τον Πεδουλάκη από το Περιστέρι. Και ο Παταβούκας έπαιζε στον Αστέρα Εξαρχείων. Το 87 πήραμε το ρίσκο. Κι εμείς και η ομοσπονδία. Το 85, αποφασίσαμε να τα αλλάξουμε όλα. Ανανεώσαμε το υλικό, δώσαμε εμπιστοσύνη στα νέα παιδιά, κάναμε επιστημονική προετοιμασία. Θυμάμαι ότι ο Φασούλας, που βρισκόταν σε μια κόντρα τότε με τον ΠΑΟΚ, μου έλεγε «δεν μπορώ άλλο». Του εξήγησα ότι ήταν η ευκαιρία του. Να παίξει με την Εθνική και να αναγκάσει την ομάδα του να τον δει με άλλο μάτι.
Ο Γκάλης ζούσε για να παίζει μπάσκετ
Ο Γκάλης ήταν ένα παίκτης φαινόμενο. Στο Ευρωμπάσκετ φτάσατε μαζί στην κορυφή, λίγα χρόνια μετά ήσασταν ο προπονητής στο ματς που αποδείχθηκε το τελευταίο στην καριέρα του...
Ο Ιωαννίδης με ρωτούσε, πως καταφέρνεις να βγάζεις τον Γκάλη από το παιχνίδι, χωρίς να … φωνάζει. Δεν ήθελε να βγαίνει, είναι αλήθεια. Έβλεπε ας πούμε το ματς να ξεφεύγει στους 20 πόντους, πλησίαζε προς τον πάγκο και ψιθύριζε «κόουτς, άσε με λίγο ακόμη να ρολάρω». Ήξερε ότι θα τον βγάλω. Το παιχνίδι για τον Γκάλη, ήταν η ζωή του. Εκεί κανείς δεν μπορούσε να τον συγκρατήσει. Μαζί με την αδρεναλίνη, ανέβαινε και η αυτοπεποίθησή του. Κι ενώ στην προπόνηση έκανε λίγα σουτ και έδινε περισσότερες ασίστ, στο παιχνίδι έκανε τα ακριβώς αντίθετα.
Στον Παναθηναϊκό, σκέφτηκα ότι σε ορισμένα παιχνίδια θα μπορούσε να ξεκουράζεται, για να είναι φρέσκος στα πιο δύσκολα ματς. Είχαν περάσει πια τα χρόνια και γι αυτόν και για τον Γιαννάκη. Είπα και στους δυο ότι θα κάθονταν στον πάγκο. Ο Γιαννάκης το δέχθηκε, ο Γκάλης όχι και έγινε ό,τι έγινε...
Το Ευρωμπάσκετ 87 δεν ήταν μόνο μια μεγάλη αθλητική επιτυχία
Αποτέλεσε, για την εποχή, ένα τεράστιο κοινωνικό γεγονός. Ένας πολιτικός μου είχε πει τότε «15 μέρες δεν ασχολήθηκε κανείς μαζί μας». Έδειξε επίσης, όλη αυτή η ιστορία, ότι οι Έλληνες έχουμε δυνατότητες, εφόσον είμαστε ενωμένοι. Μόνο, που δεν ενωνόμαστε ποτέ. Τα εγώ, μας εμποδίζουν...
Το μπάσκετ ταιριάζει στην ιδιοσυγκρασία μας, γιατί έχουμε την ικανότητα να σκεφτόμαστε και να αντιδρούμε μέσα σε ελάχιστα δευτερόλεπτα. Μη μας βάλεις σε πρόγραμμα. Όσο πιο γρήγορα, τόσο το καλύτερο. Γι αυτό πετύχαμε στο μπάσκετ. Κι αν κάποτε ο χρόνος επίθεσης πέσει στα 20’’, θα είμαστε ακόμη καλύτεροι!
Υπομονή δεν έχουμε, μπορούμε όμως να πάρουμε τις αστραπιαίες αποφάσεις, να πάρουμε πρωτοβουλίες σε μικρό χώρο και ελάχιστο χρόνο στη διάθεσή μας.
Οι επιτυχίες φέρνουν και μαζικότητα. Μεγάλωσε ο σωματότυπος των παιδιών με την πάροδο των ετών και βέβαια είχαμε ένα πολύ μεγάλο εύρος επιλογών. Πηγαίναμε από τη Βόρειο Ελλάδα στην Κρήτη για να βρούμε τα ταλέντα, χάρη στο αναπτυξιακό πρόγραμμα της ομοσπονδίας. Πρωτοποριακό, για την εποχή του. Σταμάτησε πρόσφατα, λόγω της κρίσης. Υπήρχαν, πλέον, και τα πρότυπα της Εθνικής Ομάδας, ενώ λίγο αργότερα προστέθηκε και το οικονομικό κίνητρο"
Κι από εκείνη την εποχή τι έμεινε;
Διαχρονικα, η αγάπη του κόσμου. Να θέλουν όλοι να σου σφίξουν το χέρι. Ακόμη και τώρα 30χρόνια μετά, έρχονται κοντά σου να σε χαιρετήσουν. Οι τότε δεκαπεντάρηδες-εικοσάρηδες, είναι πλέον 45-50 ετών. Λογικό είναι να μη ξεχνάνε τι συνέβη.
Η πιο έντονη ανάμνηση από τα πανηγύρια;
Όταν τελείωσε ο τελικός, οι απονομές, οι συνεντεύξεις και λοιπά, έψαχνα να βρω την ομάδα! Δεν έβρισκα κανέναν. Είχαν τρελαθεί όλοι. Ε, δεν βλέπω κανέναν, παίρνω τη γυναίκα μου, μπαίνουμε στο πρώτο ταξί και έτσι γύρισα στο ξενοδοχείο.
Θυμάμαι και την μητέρα σας να σας κάνει έκπληξη
Στον ημιτελικό. Δεν το περίμενα, γιατί είχε πάθει ένα βαρύ διάστρεμμα και δεν μπορούσε να περπατήσει. Ξαφνικά την είδα μπροστά μου και … τρελάθηκα. Το ζούσε, όλο αυτό, με τον τρόπο της. Είχε το ραδιάκι και άκουγε τη μετάδοση.
- Όλος ο κόσμος ήθελε να έρθει στο ξενοδοχείο...
Άρχισε να συρρέει με τις νίκες. Οι παίκτες δεν ήταν τόσο συνηθισμένοι. Ο Γκάλης, μάλιστα, που στον Άρη είχε άλλου είδους πρότυπα, μου λέει «έχει φασαρία κόουτς». Αλλά, εγώ σκεφτόμουν αλλιώς. Η ομάδα είχε ξεφύγει από τα στενά πλαίσια του μπάσκετ. Την αγκάλιαζαν χιλιάδες άνθρωποι. Δεν μπορούσες ξαφνικά να τους κλείσεις τις πόρτες. «Νίκο, λέω στον Γκάλη, πρέπει να το συνηθίσουμε. Ο κόσμος και τα αυτόγραφα, θα είναι μέρος της δουλειάς σου. Δεν βοηθάει η απομόνωση». And so it happened. Το ξενοδοχείο ήταν ανοιχτό, αλλά όταν έπρεπε είχαμε ησυχία.
Όχι στην ανακύκλωση των παικτών
Τι εμποδίζει πλέον την ανάπτυξη του μπάσκετ;
Χρειάζεται προώθηση των Ελλήνων παικτών, σε όλα τα επίπεδα. Και στις μικρομεσαίες ομάδες και στην Α2 και στις επόμενες. Να μην ανακυκλώνονται οι παίκτες, κατεβαίνοντας από κατηγορία σε κατηγορία. Δεν γίνεται να κόβουμε το δρόμο στους νέους. Πρέπει να μπουν κανόνες και όρια ηλικίας, αλλά χρειάζεται και όραμα. Να βλέπεις το μέλλον. Λέω στους προπονητές το 87 οι γκαρντ που είχαμε ήταν πάνω από 1.90, αμέσως μετά έπεσε λίγο το ύψος και ξαναβρήκαμε την επιτυχία όταν ήρθαν Παπαλουκάς και Διαμαντίδης στην περιφέρεια.
Αυτό προϋποθέτει, όμως, έναν εθνικό προπονητή που συνεργάζεται με τους υπόλοιπους ομοσπονδιακούς, σε ενιαία γραμμή. Λένε ότι το πρόβλημα είναι οικονομικό. Σίγουρα, παίζει ρόλο αλλά δεν είναι το βασικό εμπόδιο. Το όραμα λείπει. Η Εθνική δεν τα καταφέρνει, οι άλλες ομάδες πέφτουν κατηγορία, κι ενώ βγαίνουν ταλέντα, έχουμε παίκτες, κάτι δεν πάει καλά. Πρέπει να γίνει κάτι ανάλογο, με τη γενιά του 90, που προωθήθηκε γρήγορα"
Πως βλέπετε τους νέους προπονητές;
Έχουμε καλούς κόουτς. Στροφάρει το μυαλό. Ειδικά τις αποφάσεις μέσα στο παιχνίδι, που απαιτούν γρήγορη σκέψη, τις παίρνουμε πιο εύκολα. Γι αυτό το λόγο, οι Έλληνες προπονητές έχουν βγει, πλέον, μπροστά και τα καταφέρνουν μια χαρά. Καλό είναι να ακους τους συνεργάτες σου. Εγώ έλεγα ότι μπορώ να πάρω κάτι ακόμη και από τον παράγοντα. Άλλο δυο μάτια κι άλλο τέσσερα. Γι αυτό, είχα πάντα μέλημα να πάρω τους καλύτερους συνεργάτες.Ο Ευθύμης ήταν έτοιμος να αναλάβει. Ο Μάκης Δενδρινός, ο Πετρόπουλος, ο Ιορδανίδης δούλευαν μαζί μου..."
Πόσο έχει αλλάξει το μπάσκετ από το 87 και μετά...
Πάρα πολύ. Έγινε πιο αθλητικό. Στη δεκαετία του 80 παιζόταν μέσα στη ρακέτα. Τώρα, οι ψηλοί είναι βοηθητικοι. Οι κοντοί κρατάνε την μπάλα και αποφασίζουν αυτοί, τι θα γίνει. Οι σέντερ είναι αθλητικοί, αναλώσιμοι, θα πάρουν ριμπάουντ και θα … σκοράρουν από τις ασίστ
Το 88 -μετά το προολυμπιακό τουρνουά-αποφασίσατε να φύγετε από την Εθνική...
Ήμουν πάντα ανήσυχος. Δεν καθόμουν πολύ σε μια ομάδα. Δεν το άντεχα. Στην Εθνική ήταν οι συνθήκες που με ανάγκασαν να φύγω, μετά το προολυμπιακό. Ήταν μια άλλη ομάδα, που είχε προετοιμαστεί διαφορετικά. Ο Στεργάκος ήταν μαζί μας. Ο Φασούλας έβαζε 25-30 πόντους, αλλά ξαφνικά τέθηκε το θέμα να ενσωματωθεί ο Γκάλης στην ομάδα, ενώ δεν είχε πάρει μέρος στην προετοιμασία. Αποτέλεσμα να αλλάξουμε πρόσωπο και να μην τα καταφέρουμε. Οι βάσεις, όμως, είχαν μπει γιατί και τα 89 πήραμε το αργυρό μετάλλιο..."
Ποιο είναι το μπασκετικό μάθημα της ιστορίας του 87;
Μια ομάδα να έχει καλή λειτουργία, με ρόλους, για να βγει η εικόνα μέσα στο γήπεδο. Οι παίκτες να σέβονται τον προπονητή και το αντίθετο"